Curse

Avarre · Feb 20, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The5thSeraph

You say that like you expect PvE'ers to give a toss about PvP (despite claiming quite only on the flipside that PvP'ers don't care about PvE).
Make no mistake: We don't.

PvP skill balances do enough damage to PvE as it is. Constantly changing them on a weekly basis to counter whatever PvP trends might arise or suchlike would all but ruin PvE entirely (not that you care, but others do)... not to mention that it would lead to the eventual death of all skill synergy in the game if taken to its logical conclusion.

Essentially, you only substantiate my point. From the PvP perspective, which I was addressing, splitting the two does nothing as the fundamental problems are still there.

As an avid PvE'er for well over a year, I can also say that the skill updates cause, well... minor ripples. Gimmick farming builds get hit, but by large team setups don't change. What does change is the composition of PvE enemy groups - higher damage, higher health as subsitute for versatility and synergy. For this reason, classes like the mesmer are not as valued - not because skills that were added have been removed, but because direct aoe damage is the only thing that matters due to the way PvE in Nightfall has been implemented.

The issue of this method of making PvE 'difficult', by changing the AI, by one-dimensionally strengthening mobs is the reason for stagnation in PvE, and the reason that less skills become viable in a team - not the 'skill updates', which (in team setups) cause remarkably little effect. Gimmick farming setups were hit more by AI changes than anything else, and even PvE needs its balance (spirit bond, prot bond, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

the PvP/PvE separation of skills thing is something PvE players have been chattering about for months

Let's take a recent example. Spiritual Pain was nerfed for PvP causes, leading to a protest being raised by (pure) PvE mesmer players. Note that in Factions, mesmers would not have had this skill, and were yet highly viable in all areas. Therefore, there are two reasons to so loudly complain over this issue;

a) PvE players refuse to allow something obviously imbalanced in any arena be nerfed. I'd like to not think this, as that would be rather offensive to some.

b) The mesmer became reliant on heavy direct aoe damage in the Nightfall PvE state. This I would agree with - when monsters are given thousands of health in groups, who cares about the skills that worked in FoW? You just need pure damage, and that's a problem as far as PvE is concerned. The skill balances only highlight it in certain areas, but even if the skills were not changed the factors for the problem would still be in place, and would lead to greater issues from power creep - which is evident through the last three chapters.

In conclusion, the skills aren't the problem in PvE, the access isn't a major problem (still needs addressing, though). The problem is a one-dimensional powercreep of mobiles in PvE, compensated with heavy direct damage - resulting in a serious rift from previous viable tactics. When these heavy skills are reduced inevitably, it causes a limitation in what can be done, leading to 'meta' stagnation in PvE more than anything (an issue prevalent before in the elite missions as well). PvE needs to be better designed with flexible, varying mobs rather than brute force which is best met with a giant pack of AoE spammers.

MrTumnus · Feb 20, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Sorry ArenaNet, but... you've sort of had this one coming. I understand that things take time to work out, and to program, but unless you are either extremely understaffed or just too busy thinking of what you think is "cool" rather than actually implementing any of it, there is no real reason for these massive delays. You either do something, or you don't do it, but either way, you should never leave a community hanging like you do. You don't need to keep a specific set of players, because of your sales platform, but if word gets out about how many important issues are pushed back for petty ones, you won't get the new players that you need to survive come C5, C6, and / or so on. I love this game, and enjoy it more than most others I have yet played, but waiting months, and almost years in some cases (not necessarily referring only to GW with that one), for something to be put into the game that should have been in there since the betas... It's just a little disheartening.

Do it, or don't do it. Just please, stop beating around the bush and let us know, should we keep holding out, or should we quit now to prepare for some of the new games coming out in the near future?

I started playing GW:P for the storyline (coming from D2, this was a lighter/darker story and much more interactive). I kept playing for the events, which were things that were not promised on the back of the box that I bought. The money I paid for GW (all 3 chapters) unlocked all the professions, and 8 character slots, the stories, and any bonuses that the box said it would include (factions preorder got bonus weapons for rit and sin; NF coll. got minipet, dance, making of dvd, and other offline stuff). That's what I paid for. Beyond that, I only expect the game to run as best it can on its end (assuming my end is find). Imagine a development team that isn't paid on a regular basis by its players but still sends updates towards the game, despite any complaints they may have about the game. The bottom line is that the only important issues that I expect them to work on are the ones that keep the game up and running. Is the game running? Yes? Good. Are the servers relatively stable? Yes? good. Are major glitches (ie: all runes selling for 150g) being worked on? Yes? Good. Skill balances, access to elite missions, hairstylists, auction houses, easier Razah acquisition...those are all things that may be appreciated by the player base (though easing Razah access may not sit well with those who worked hard for it and I think they'd be rightfully angry; I don't support making Razah any easier even though I don't have him), but I didn't pay for them and will take them as they come, or don't at all.

ChaoticCoyote · Feb 20, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

My problem with Razah's "design" isn;t related to his class, or the nature of DoA, but rather to PvE/PvP equality.

I have Razah unlocked for PvP; obtaining 6,000 Balthazar faction is trivial.

I don;t have Razah available on any of my PvE characters. simply because I find DoA so dreadfully boring I just can't bring myself to play there long enough to get the required gems.

The amount of effort required is ridiculously different between PvE and PvP, yet another example of how ANet favors PvP over PvE.

Gaile: Why should PvP players have easy access to Razah, yet PvP players must spend hours of grind to obtain him?

Ariena Najea · Feb 20, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Imo, we'd simply be better off adding another Ritualist hero to the game (maybe a Tengu model =P) which is easier to obtain before the DoA. This would go along with the crystalline mentality, you can get the easy-just-as-functional hero and/or go through the grind to get to Razah.

I don't think having another Ritualist hero would kill the game, simply improve it especially for the classes which already struggle in PvE, and cannot get a good DoA group (Mesmer, Assassin, Paragon after the nerfs)

Faer · Feb 20, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTumnus

The "get what you pay for in the box and everything else is extra" argument works fine up until the point where the company says they will do something and then they don't. I'd have been perfectly fine with the game the way it was when I bought it, if ArenaNet would just stop saying "We'll do that soon", "This is coming shortly", "It's in the near future", and the like.

I expect a company to have enough sense not to say things they aren't ready to back up with action. Apparently, ArenaNet is lacking in that department. If they'd stop spewing the "soon" crap and start saying "Sorry, we have no current plans to do this" or "Sorry, but we don't currently have a team to work on this", it wouldn't be as big of a problem. Sure, we got what we payed for, and that's all well and good. However, I'm pretty sure the majority of customers don't appreciate being lead along by a tiny string for a year hoping that a company will finally put some actions behind their words. It's not the lack of updates and new content in general that is the problem, it's the lack of action on promises, hints, instigated rumors, and the like that is.

If this is just going to be a "get what you pay for" game, then the people in charge of producing the game shouldn't keep talking about things we haven't paid for. I appreciate all of the free content I have been given by ArenaNet, make no mistake; but I truly, truly wish they'd put some of that effort into needed updates (such as the long awaited reconnect feature, which was an excellent addition, if a bit late in implementation), rather than useless vanity ones that don't make any difference in the long run except filling the pockets of people who get lucky.

Avarre · Feb 20, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I was going to write a totally awesome reply to Faer that would have spanned pages. Then I came to my senses, and noted this topic had derailed from Razah itself to 'everything that's wrong and why', and to a more recent extent, 'the nature of the disconnect in the Anet CR/PR system'.

So, since specific parts of the mixed discussion here can be put in different threads, and there is nothing really new on this topic as it was based on a brief chatlog, I proclaim this thread CLOSED.

Also Faer. You derail threads. Don't do that.